This cant be bad... - Just cause I like to brag...

For things not related directly to ApeZone games. Discuss, debate, but do it in good taste.

Postby Vaaish » Sat Aug 11, 2001 11:27 pm

It is a very simple quote to understand.

No one forces you to learn anything, and by the same token nothing forces you to live.

No, I don't believe that dictionary.com is an unabridged dictionary. if it doesn't have a particular word, find an unabridged dictionary to use. It was ment as a simple referance.


(Edited by Vaaish at 1:30 am on Aug. 12, 2001)
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Postby Sith4dmin » Sat Aug 11, 2001 11:31 pm

"What is it to be philsophical? To give answers to questions that cant be answerd themselves so man can spend an eternity answereing your answer? No, to be philisophical you must answer the question so ALL men can understand it."

In a way that's true, just poorly written. Bett put would be 'answering difficult philosophical questions in a way that is not easily understood is not truly answering them. Instead they should be answered in a manner which is not ambiguous, so much as the dependencies of the actual question allow.'

"In large numbers we have great powers but in small groups we can do greater things."

Great thoughts can come from one man, but truly great deeds can only come from many.

"The man with the hollow head and the plain face shall be called Kingston."

That would explain why those particular NICs suck. (Inside technical joke haha!) No really, who cares about people named Kingston?

"Man- If you say you never sin and you know all past present and future but create a fruit of death that you know will kill, is that not murder, wich is a sin itself?"

Potential is an element of existance that is far too vast to be so easily simplified in ethics. Potentially I could kill a lot of people, does that mean my mother sinned in giving birth to me? Silly argument. Only the actual is admissible for any debate, since it at least is finite. The potential aspects of matter can be interesting as intellectual exercises though, just think about what could happen to a metal paperclip over the next millenia. What documents might pass through it, what it might be recylcled into, even into space as its resmelted atoms become part of space vehicles' furnishings.

"God- You created sin and yet define sin by your own words...I define sin by mine. If I know all and see all and yet do not interfere with murder does that make me the murderer?"

The souls of men are immortal, and the bodies are not. Relative to eternity, is it so important when we die? Wrongful death only condemns the killer, the responsibility of the victim is to himself, how will he be judged, now that his time is up. Remember, "Since it is possible that you may be quitting life this very moment, govern every act and thought accordingly." ~Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, Meditations

"*unquote* Hey after your done picking those apart give me a topic to quote on so I know wich ones you CAN pick apart. If you want to know who wrote theese I will tell you but if you dont I wont share because it is very shameful to me. I really like the philisophical quote thing...Its just like yours it cancels itself out. So I want to see how you pick it apart."

Mmm actually I tire of this. I was hoping to argue points. While pointing out fallacy is an altruistic service, it is tedious. I want a good debate. :(
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Postby Site Manager » Sun Aug 12, 2001 1:10 am

I would have to agree with you, I think a debate would be more fun...Problem is what is there to debate about, remember my memeorie quote thing, that sorta aplies here. You could out do me in a single post, I will try though. Here goes absolutely everything I can possibly know right now...

Q. What is the most important aspect of life?The second?

I think right now for me it would be the ability to learn and know things, mostly because this is what I need most. Secondly I think that fame and fortune are the next best aspect. To have everyone wanting to be you (much like I am with you) and to have all the money to do what you want when you want and to have enough left over just to get stuff to brag about (again just like you).

(If you dont like this topic can you suggest another one? I would like to try to debate but I dont know what about. Thanks alot.) :)
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Postby Sith4dmin » Sun Aug 12, 2001 2:28 am

The most important aspect of life is its active length. Oh but to have been Methusela. Accomplishment comes with time, unfortunately the length of men's lives now is hardly enough to become acquainted with one field, much less many, and only rarely to truely advance that field.

Not that one should necessarily avoid death for an honorable cause, as "Nobody cares how nobly they live, only how long. But while it is in no man's power to decide their longevity, it is within the power of any man to live nobly." Paraphrase of Seneca (Or was it Cicero? I can't recall from memory this late.)

The second most important element is security for the immortal soul. Rather self explanatory I should think.

As to your thoughts, understanding and knowledge are things which come from effort. No intellectual man has gotten where he is without some sort of effort. Even natural talent can only go so far. It takes initiative. When I was of preschool age, I chose to read and did. Over the next decade+ I moved from the simple children's books to comic books to simple fiction to adult fiction to science fiction to political theory to philosophy and oratory. It has been a long process, but it brought me to a point where I now read books for my own amusement that the majority of my chronological peers would not be able to understand.

As to fame and fortune, they can be useful, but objectively they have no value. Only change effected upon the whole has value, not the flattery or power of the one or the few.
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Postby EBTG » Mon Aug 13, 2001 12:21 am

Hee hee, gosh you guys get deep.

How bout this quote:

"A happy wife is a happy marriage."

Ok, I'm being silly. I love this quote from Proverbs 20:5-7 :
"Many a man claims to have unfailing love, but a faithful man who can find?"

But I'm just a cynical kinda guy.

As for SM's question:
"What is the most important aspect of life?"
"The second?"

You are now asking for an absolute truth in a culture that does not wish to believe in one.

Thus your 3 important aspects: knowledge, fame and fortune assumes that advancement of the self is fundamental and an absolute truth and goal in this universe.

Sith4dmin statements assumes that the advancement of the human race to be a truth and goal in this universe. (sorta, I know it's more complicated than that from what you posted, and maybe I read it wrong, but I'm trying to keep my posts small...and failing *sigh*)

Such debates I find almost pointless if the foundation is in disagreement to begin with.

For instance, I took a class on Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. To put it simply, Nietzsche based his philosophy on the foundation that God didn't exist. Kierkegaard based his on the fact that God did exist. Students would still debate their ideas disregarding these foundations, and it was pointless, and they wouldn't get it.

What they SHOULD have been debating was whether or not their philosophy worked WITH that foundation in place.

No point trying to figure out calculus if you can't agree that 1+1=2.


Anyways, I went off on a tangent again. For the debate to be productive (this of course assuming a foundation that a debate must be productive :) ), then a common ground should be found. If SM doesn't believe that the preservation and advancement of the human race is even important, then it won't matter what Sith4dmin says...well not technically. A debate will eventually end up at that foundation, and then it will end there, or build back up if an agreement has been arrived at. I just say cut to the chase. :)


Anyways, I didn't even bother answering SM's question, and I probably won't, depending on what foundation is agreed upon. Now if it's the foundation's that are actually debated on, well, then it's a non-ending argument. Is there an immortal soul? Isn't there? Can't prove there isn't, can't prove there is (well, you can't to someone who is adamant there isn't.)

Uh oh, battery dying, gotta go!
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Postby Sith4dmin » Mon Aug 13, 2001 12:41 am

Ah, but you see, most people choose themselves as foundations. And this is, unfortunately, logical. It occured to me after I wrote my treatise on merging Peripatetic thought with Biblical Christianity... I tried to prove God's existance by entity relationships, but I realised afterward that this was completely invalid because everything a man experiences can be relative to HIM so long as he exists. I doubt you want me to post the whole treatise and write a revision in this post, so I'll move on.

So you see this cannot be anything but a debate of which foundation is valid, since each of has our own idea of what absolute truth is based on what we have learned in life.

This is why two people will draw different conclusions from the same data, because they have had different experiences before they came to deal with that situation.

But then is not logical that agreement on absolute truth can only come from a collective absolute congruency? And that will never happen because human society holds individuality so dear (myself included), but collective consciousness is an interesting concept.

Also, EBTG, long posts are not bad things at all.
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Postby EBTG » Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:05 am

You know, I actually screw around with the ikonboard code (in another forum) and I still don't know how to include the previous text. :)

S4 wrote:
"So you see this cannot be anything but a debate of which foundation is valid, since each of has our own idea of what absolute truth is based on what we have learned in life. "

No argument here.

"But then is not logical that agreement on absolute truth can only come from a collective absolute congruency? And that will never happen because human society holds individuality so dear (myself included), but collective consciousness is an interesting concept."

The latter I agree with, which is why I say that arguing a foundation is pointless. And actually, human Western society holds individuality quite dear. Other cultures can be quite different.

But absolute truth coming from a collective absolute agreement as a logical conclusion? I wouldn't totally agree. At one point, the whole world thought the sun revolved around the earth, it didn't make it an absolute truth. (Ok, not the whole world, some probably thought the sun was a huge chicken egg ready to spew forth life and omelettes... :) )

"Ah, but you see, most people choose themselves as foundations. And this is, unfortunately, logical. "

*laugh* Or it's arrogance. We are quite an arrogant and selfish race.
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Postby hepkitten » Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:52 pm

One of my favorite quotes is from the book DeathKiller by Spider Robinson and goes thusly:

"If a person who indulges in gluttony is a glutton, and a person who commits a felony is a felon, then God is an iron. Or else He's the dumbest designer that ever lived."

This in no way makes any statement on my religious assumptions.

~hk_
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Postby Sith4dmin » Mon Aug 13, 2001 3:34 pm

*giggle* :)
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Postby Site Manager » Mon Aug 13, 2001 5:24 pm

Ok I guess I was gone to long...you guys are back to giggling and that means this post is almost over. Lets see if I can save it...

Sith you say that the most important aspect is length of life, but like you said life is not long enough to get things done and you can never really become an expert... So I say why try then. If you cant ever be good at anything why try to be in the fisrt place? I just go for what pleses me the most in the short amount of time I have to live. Also like you say no one really cares how you live or how noble you were\are, They just want to further themselves. That is why I can care just about me and not anyone else. If I had the oportunity to save fifty lives would I do it? I absolutly would not...unless it had something for me in return, like prize money or something, so if it isnt something that will make me happy I dont care about it. This may seem very selfish, but I figure why spend all of my life in #### torturing myself just to make OTHERS happy? If someone likes to make others happy I can understand that, but as for me I just want me to be happy.

As for your second aspect I sorta have to agree with you. Life may be fun here for the fifty or so years your here but if you dont care about your soul thats eternity in #### or as a cow ect. whatever you beleive. But I think this is a third aspect for me. I want to have fun first and watch out for my soul while Im doing it. Not watching my soul and doin only things that cant possibly hurt it. Also I have to agree that the two aspects I like will take alot of work to get wich is why they are just wishes for me. There isnt enough time in the world that could get me smart enough to have those things so I will not waste any time pursuing them. I will just stick with making myself happy now with what I have. The people that do have those thing are fortunate, they were doing what they liked and people followed them. Thats another quote I dont know who said it but here it goes...

No man can possibly gain fame and fortune nor can he pursue it, it is like a burden that just falls into his lap.

Thats all I have for now... Just dont out philosophy me to much cause I know you can get me to beleive everything Ive been doing is all wrong, and that would suck. Mess with my mind... thats fine but dont tell me the world dosent exist.
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Postby Sith4dmin » Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:45 pm

"Sith you say that the most important aspect is length of life, but like you said life is not long enough to get things done and you can never really become an expert... So I say why try then. If you cant ever be good at anything why try to be in the fisrt place? I just go for what pleses me the most in the short amount of time I have to live. Also like you say no one really cares how you live or how noble you were\are, They just want to further themselves."

That's not what I said at all, I was quoting a concept which praised nobility as a forgotten virtue, while common men were more interested in things they could not control.

"That is why I can care just about me and not anyone else. If I had the oportunity to save fifty lives would I do it? I absolutly would not...unless it had something for me in return, like prize money or something, so if it isnt something that will make me happy I dont care about it. This may seem very selfish, but I figure why spend all of my life in #### torturing myself just to make OTHERS happy? If someone likes to make others happy I can understand that, but as for me I just want me to be happy."

Why should you suffer for others? Because the do/may/have/will suffer for you. Happiness of the few or the one is effected by the many. Everything, all the services and manufacture goods, come from long chains of hard working people, sure they're compensated (except in the Philippines, but that's beside the point!), but it's still their work. This even leaves out family, friends, and such who do things without compensation.

"As for your second aspect I sorta have to agree with you. Life may be fun here for the fifty or so years your here but if you dont care about your soul thats eternity in #### or as a cow ect. whatever you beleive. But I think this is a third aspect for me. I want to have fun first and watch out for my soul while Im doing it. Not watching my soul and doin only things that cant possibly hurt it. Also I have to agree that the two aspects I like will take alot of work to get wich is why they are just wishes for me. There isnt enough time in the world that could get me smart enough to have those things so I will not waste any time pursuing them. I will just stick with making myself happy now with what I have. The people that do have those thing are fortunate, they were doing what they liked and people followed them. Thats another quote I dont know who said it but here it goes...

No man can possibly gain fame and fortune nor can he pursue it, it is like a burden that just falls into his lap."

Fortune is most definitely pursued. Look at Andrew Carnegie.

Fame is also pursued, look at any number of stupid film stars. Sometimes fame and fortune come by accident but much more often it comes by clawing your way to the top.

"Thats all I have for now... Just dont out philosophy me to much cause I know you can get me to beleive everything Ive been doing is all wrong, and that would suck. Mess with my mind... thats fine but dont tell me the world dosent exist."

The truth will hold up to examination.
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Postby EBTG » Tue Aug 14, 2001 11:39 am

Allo!

Okeydoke, this is going to be fun!

SM wrote:
"That is why I can care just about me and not anyone else. If I had the oportunity to save fifty lives would I do it? I absolutly would not...unless it had something for me in return, like prize money or something, so if it isnt something that will make me happy I dont care about it. This may seem very selfish, but I figure why spend all of my life in #### torturing myself just to make OTHERS happy? If someone likes to make others happy I can understand that, but as for me I just want me to be happy."

Well, you do have a point, why bother suffering for others? Why bother indeed? I'll try and answer from a practical point of view (practical as in beneficial to yourself, as opposed to society, the environment, the soul, whatever).

Now our western society is a Fast-Food society, where everything needs to be given to us now, and we want instant gratification. (It's not so in other countries). So we become short-sighted, unable to see and think past the next week, or day, or even hour.

The "rewards" of being unselfish isn't readily apparent, or something that comes with one simple unselfish act.

BUT, the human race is a social animal. And we need people. We need their love, their affirmation, their company, their interaction.

Living selfishly places you into a category where no one wants to deal with you. If everyone sees you as a jerk, why would they hang out with you? And if you get married and have children (which require ENORMOUS acts of unselfishness), being selfish just makes the marriage something to endure as opposed to a joy.

Believe it or not, loneliness sucks. And being unloved sucks too. Why endanger yourself into such a position by being a selfish jerk? And if you say "I'm not a jerk though!", (which we ALL believe, but quite frankly, we're a jerk to SOMEONE :) ) a jerk is basically a selfish person that doesn't care about others, and wants to further his/her needs above everyone elses.

If you want another quote:
"Nobody cares how much you know, they want to know how much you care."

Now, we're ALL selfish. It is our nature to be. It's impossible to be completely other-centered. But being unselfish brings joy, believe it or not.

I've been married for almost 3 years now, and I still simply adore being with my wife. She is committed to making me happy as much as I am committed to making her happy. I'm not trying to brag, but it goes with my facetious quote:
"A happy wife is a happy marriage."

In fact, her happiness and contentment is one of my goals in life. (As I've mentioned before, she works with homeless and people that work in the sex trade. The amount of emotional support needed for that is quite high, and I am committed to provide as much support I possibly can).

I have to go, but no one likes a jerk. Money, fame, and knowledge cannot hide the fact that you're a jerk. And going through life being despised is not exactly fun.
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Postby cv » Tue Aug 14, 2001 1:24 pm

EBTG
There is plenty of selfishness in the 'eastern society' as well. Your point is well played except for that one rough patch.

There are two kinds of people in the world:
Those who think there are two kinds of people in the world and those who know better.

cheers
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Postby EBTG » Tue Aug 14, 2001 3:39 pm

Allo cv!

"There is plenty of selfishness in the 'eastern society' as well. Your point is well played except for that one rough patch. "

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say there wasn't selfishness in the eastern world. It was in relation to the "instant-gratification" part of the argument. For instance, eastern Europe, where you hear stories of lining up for bread and food and whatnot.

I know I wasn't very clear in my last post.

Also, I'm also not trying to promote that one society is "better" than the other either.

I'm a slave to instant gratification too. I bought Starships Unlimited and didn't want to wait around, I wanted my CD key NOW! :) And I got it within minutes. I was a happy guy!
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Postby cv » Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:58 pm

I see. I will always stand up for individuality first and I hate to be lumped in with a whole hemisphere.

Instant gratification is a little slow, but we take what we can get!
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