Invest in ecmonics?

Discuss the game of Starship Kingdom

Invest in ecmonics?

Postby Meatboy Dogfood » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:56 pm

A thougt to test out. Andrew has said he would rather give starships then credits, but you need credits to boost your production and upgrades. Could a invest in economics be put in that works similar to the invest in production.

Investing a credit gives you a 5% percent chance to improve your ecomomy a level. A level two ecomony would give you more credits for planets you control and a bouns in credits for planet you take during the attack phase.

The reasons for doing this for me it least is to add depth to the game and to give the player who is on the losing side a reason to continue playing and a chance to rally back to pull out a win.

The engine for this game work great and is stable. Tweaks to the interface aside, the game mechcanics are sound, so now Im tossing ideas out to deepen the game play.

Right now it is a case of both sides owning a crate of eggs and a hammer. You build a bigger hammer [Your fleet] to smash your opponets crate of eggs [thier fleet] . Right now the game ends up turning on one or two megabattles you or they smashes the others main crate of eggs with the biggest hammer you got and whoever is successful quickly gobbles up the lightly defened planets behind the main fleet.

I would like to see somebody who has lost the main battle be able to at least make the winner have to work for a victory, or by a combination of skill and some luck be able to battle back.

Providing some way out will help in multiplayer. Right now lots of games online will be solved by that one big battle. The loser having no point in holding off the inevenitable will most times just yeild and leave the game. That will prove to be highly unsastifying to both sides. So here I am tossing out thoughts to avoid that. Any body got an opinion on this. Andrew does this fit into your concept of the game?
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Postby karok » Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:29 pm

i kind of like that idea, It would add an additional "flavor" to the game play.
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Postby Andrew Ewanchyna » Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:08 am

Investing in Production is suppose to solve this problem. Investing in the economy has the risk of throwing things out of wack. Having too much credits coming in means that buying new techs becomes meaningless because you can just wait and get them all in one turn. Its suppose to be a little hard to upgrade. This was the reason I moved from a card system to a credit system. The methods I had used to try to slow down a player from just upgrading from all their systems within a turn or two didn't work very well.

My thoughts for creating a more interesting end game would be to have the remaining Indies join the weaker player at some random time (as discussed before) or getting a supernova bomb each time your production level goes up. The supernova bomb would allow the player to launch it at a defending fleet before sending in their own fleet. It would destroy the defending fleet, thus allowing a way for a weaker side to destroy a large concentration of enemy ships. It would hopefully make players think twice about having one large fleet.

Other thoughts are to allow each side to bribe the Indie side into not attacking it. Whichever side has bribed the Indie more, doesn't get attacked, unless they attack the Indie. This, of course, could backfire and result in the winning side throwing more money to bribe than the losing side and just quickening the end.
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Postby Meatboy Dogfood » Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:48 am

Oh I like the surenova bomb Idea! that would make it fun. I also like the inde jion up and the bribe an indie idea, they would have to be balanced of course but big fun to be had.
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Postby Blackjet » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:27 pm

The bribe the Indie seems almost worthless. You could spend the money putting more ships on a planet so they Indies can't take it, or you can spend the money HOPEING they don't attack you. Which sounds better? Just my opinion. I expect at least half of you to disagree, but that is what this is all about right? LOL
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Postby karok » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:12 pm

i Like the bomb idea and the indie joining idea. I don't like the bribing, I think when one sides starts winning then they will bribe the indie to get a better advantage, thus weakinging their oponent even more.

I also agree about the economy explanation.

Keep up the good work.

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Postby Andrew Ewanchyna » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:53 pm

I intend to put in the Indies joining logic and the supernova bomb logic and the release a new beta.

I've actually put in logic to have the Indies joining the losing side at the last minute. I'll experiment a bit to try to get the right feeling so that:

1) it doesn't always happen
2) the dominant player has to keep it in mind while playing
3) the losing player has a chance to get back in the game sometimes
4) it doesn't completely overpower the dominant player as that would be unfair.

The keys to 3 & 4 is timing. It can't happen too early. I'll experiment with % of stars and odds of joining from that. So far it seems to feel right in that I look forward to it happening. We'll see if it can stand up in the face of battle (e.g. you beta testers :) ).

I don't think the bribe idea is needed, at least not for version 1.

As for supernova bombs:

1) you'll get 1 when you reach a new production level
2) you can launch one before you attack a star (it follows the same logic as a normal attack, you'd just check off that you want to fire a nova bomb as well)
3) would be cool to think of a defensive way to use these. I like Meatboy's idea of automatically using it on your last star(s). Unfortunately, not too crazy about his other ideas (too complicated).

I think, if used defensively, it should be able to defend a star from all attacks until a certain # of attacks (or damage) is reached. This is to stop a player from sending in a small force, specifically to set off the bomb. Any other ideas on this are welcome.

Thanks all,
Andrew
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Postby alltoy » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:08 pm

I also like the idea of the Indies joining and the Nova bomb. However as Andrew said, the calculation as to when the Indies join is critical.

I would recommend that not necessarly that all indies be added to the loosing side. Basically, it would add as many indies to the loosing side to re-balance the number of stars in the game.

Here is an idea on the issue of the the last star nova bomb defense. Give the player gets two chances to use his bomb. During his normal attack phase (this is normal), and whenever his last star is attacked (special case only for last star). This would work for the situation of the small force being sent in. The nova bomb(s) are sent to take out the large fleets in the rear, while the local defense fleet takes on the small attacking forces. This way the formulas for destruction/damage of the enemy fleets are the same.
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Postby Andrew Ewanchyna » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:34 pm

The in-progress indie-join checks work as follows:

Code: Select all
If winning player has more than half the stars
   and
   losing player has less than a quarter of the stars
   and
   indies have stars
   and
   100-sided dice rolls <= 25             //25% chance
then
  Let indie join the losing side


You'll note that there will be more than half the stars on the winning side in the worst case (for the winning side). I'll adjust the % (e.g. 25% chance) based on actual #s of ships and stars. Best case (for the winning side) is that the indies will never join the losing side or that it will join too late to make a difference. I've played games where both situations occured. I still need to do some playing around with this as the two extremes should happen less often.

I don't think I understand what you are saying about the nova bomb in defensive mode, alltoy. Are you saying that the nova bomb won't destroy a small attacking force, but instead attack the star where the attacking force came from. If so, what's to stop a player from attacking from a star with a small fleet, sending an even smaller fleet to attack?
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Postby Meatboy Dogfood » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:08 am

Does it use that code for the start of each turn? I like the random factor of the indies maybe joining adds suspence for all players.
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Postby alltoy » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:10 am

I re-read my post and even I cant make sense of it; let me try again.

First of all this situation only occurs when the loosing player is on the last star.

When the wining player attacks the losing players last star with any size fleet, just before the attack is carried out, interrupt the attacking players turn and provide an option to the defending player. Allow him to optionally use his nova bomb(s) against:

1) The attacking fleet (let him know what the composition of the attack fleet is).
2) Any of the attackers other fleets on the board (following normal nova bomb attack rules for distance).

In both cases, apply the normal nova bomb destruction rules to the attacking fleet.

I know this interrupts the flow of the turn (but this may be the last turn of the game), but this allows the loser one last gasp to possibly recover.

Here is how I see this played out:

- If the attacker sends in a small fleet, and leaves a large fleet in reserve, the defender takes out the large fleet, and fights it out with the small fleet.

- If the attacker sends in a large fleet, defender takes it out, then battles remainder.

- If the attacker has multiple large fleets, defender can attack them with as many nova bombs that he has in inventory.

Ultimately, if the attacker has more fleets than the defender, then the defender is going down, but nothing is going to stop that. What I like about this is that on the last turn, the looser gets a chance to really take a chunk out of the attacker (I suspect that most players will stick out a loosing game to do this). And if the situation works out well, the defender could get back into the game.
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Postby Andrew Ewanchyna » Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:42 am

Yes it runs at the start of each turn (really getting activated at the start of the losing player's turn). And yes, its random. You don't know when its going to kick in and if its even going to kick in at all. If it happens early, you have a better chance than it happening late.

I understand now, alltoy. I think you overestimate the power of the bomb. In all games there is a tipping point where a loss is pretty much guarenteed. Having one star left goes well beyond the tipping point in this game. Even if you knocked out every big fleet of the enemy, how could you stop the onslaughter of new ships they'll send at you?

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the bomb is an offensive weapon to punish a player that bunches up their starships. Until we can decide on a useful defensive use for the weapon (and maybe playing the game will help). I won't put in a defensive use for it yet.
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